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Thanks for your very generous outpouring of support

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during our classical countdown today.

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We heard from Bitzburgers near and far

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about their favorite pieces of classical music

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and heard the top 80 or so throughout the day.

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Now stay tuned for Shickly Mix.

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Peter, are you ready?

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Do conductors own mirrors? Here's the theme.

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Hello there, I'm Peter Shickly,

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and this is Shickly Mix, a program dedicated to the proposition

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that all musics are created equal.

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Or as Duke Ellington put it, if it sounds good, it is good.

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And it's a good idea to remember that our bills are paid

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by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting,

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by the National Endowment for the Arts,

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and by this fine radio station,

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where I'm provided with this fine studio

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filled with the finest audio equipment that they could find.

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Our program is distributed to the world beyond these walls

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and to WRI, Public Radio International.

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The conductor Eugene Goossens once said,

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With a perfect orchestra, you can do what you like.

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You can draw a sort of immense emotional throb out of the air

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merely by curving your hand.

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You can get brilliant waves of sound

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merely by a twist of the wrist.

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You can make sudden and absolute silence by a gesture.

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It is the most wonderful of all sensations

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that any man can conceive.

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It really oughtn't to be allowed.

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And in fact, everybody and his brother,

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and these days his sister, too, wants to be a conductor.

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Given the opportunity, people have contributed

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hundreds or even thousands of dollars to symphony orchestras

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for the privilege of getting up on the podium

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and leading Stars and Stripes forever.

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It's obviously a glorious experience, and it looks so easy.

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Today's show is called Why Are Conductors Paid?

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And the subtitle of the show is And So Much, Too.

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Back in the 1970s, I wrote a kids' piece for the St. Louis Symphony.

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The name of the work was A Zoo Called Earth.

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And the orchestra played it for the first time at the zoo.

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They actually did a whole concert at the St. Louis Zoo.

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And for one of the pieces on the program, not mine, I hasten to add,

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they put a chimpanzee up on the podium to conduct the orchestra.

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Very smart move. Made the newspapers all over the country.

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But the question is, if an orchestra can play decently

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under the highly dubious leadership of a chimp

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I mean, come on, conductors are supposed to have tails.

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Then why have a conductor at all? Or at least a human conductor?

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You could get the services of a star-quality chimp for a lot less.

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And you could probably save a bunch of money on other things, too, like limos.

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I'm sure that most chimps would be perfectly happy in a Honda Civic.

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And actually, if you go back a couple of centuries,

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most orchestras didn't have conductors, or at least separate conductors.

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They were led by some musician within the ensemble,

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very often the composer, or the main soloist, as in the big bands and jazz.

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The tradition of an orchestra in which everybody has an honest job,

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that is, everyone is actually playing an instrument,

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has been revived in the 20th century.

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And the New York-based Orpheus Chamber Orchestra

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is one of the most felicitous examples of that revival.

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A little contra dance by Mozart entitled The Lady's Triumph,

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performed by the conductorless Orpheus Chamber Orchestra.

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That's a tongue twister.

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So, okay, how do they do that?

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Well, in the first place, it may be an orchestra,

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but it is a chamber orchestra.

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For that piece, it's probably about 28 to 30 players,

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which is a lot compared to a string quartet,

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or even to a jazz big band, which might have 15, 18 players.

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But it's still a far cry from 100 Men and a Girl,

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or whatever that movie was called with Stokowski and Diana Durbin.

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A full modern symphony orchestra is no longer all male,

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but it still often contains more than 100 players.

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And 100 players take up a lot of acreage.

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And the farther players are from each other,

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the harder it is to keep them together.

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Also, that kind of piece, the Mozart contra dance,

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and even each movement of a Mozart symphony,

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tends to stay pretty much in the same tempo.

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So once you get it going, it bops along on its own,

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at least until the ending when there may be a bit of a slowing down.

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Even Mendelssohn, conducting in the second quarter of the 19th century

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when separate conductors were well established,

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would often start faster movements off

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and then let the orchestra play on its own for long stretches.

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Which is what big band or swing band leaders usually did.

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In fact, with society bands, once the leader gets a number going,

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his duty often switches to hobnobbing with the prominent patrons

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who drift by the bandstand.

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I talked to a musician once who used to play in society bands,

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and he said, if it was a smaller group anyway,

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that when the leader started chatting with people at the front of the bandstand,

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the band would sometimes play the same phrase

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over and over and over again until the leader noticed,

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and then they'd seamlessly proceed.

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Well, hello there! Good to see you again.

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Well, of course I've noticed you dancing.

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Certainly the loveliest couple on the floor, and I...

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Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey!

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All right.

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Ah, yes. Just trying to stay awake on the bandstand.

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To tell that story, I had a little help from

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Stefan Grappelli and a razor blade.

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But even when the beat isn't as pronounced as it is in the Mozart piece,

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and even when the piece is slower and the tempo isn't constant,

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a small orchestra with a good collective soul can do a fine job.

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Here's the Orpheus gang again.

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Orpheus

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Sorry to cut that off there.

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That's the kind of place that would have made Beethoven

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get up out of bed and go downstairs and resolve the chord.

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Charles Nyditch was the soloist accompanied by the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra,

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note conductor, in the first movement of Weber's concertino

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for clarinet and orchestra in E-flat. Beautiful playing.

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Now, in terms of ensemble and togetherness,

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it is a recording, so we don't know what kind of editing

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might have been done, but they are good.

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And not just in ensemble, either.

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They play with terrific, terrific spirit.

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And that brings us to the...

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Man.

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You know, I'm not even going to answer that.

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I don't know how this number gets out,

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but every time I answer the phone when I'm on the air,

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I end up wishing that I hadn't.

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Okay.

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Actually, maybe whoever it was just wanted to know who I am.

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I'm Peter Shickely.

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The program is Shickely Mix from PRI, Public Radio International.

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Now, I have heard the whole big New York Philharmonic

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play the Overture to Candide, which is a tricky little piece,

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without a conductor.

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They did that on an anniversary concert

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as a tribute to the late Leonard Bernstein.

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But it is in the nature of a stunt.

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It's a piece they've all played many times,

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and in the long run, playing without a conductor

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would require much more rehearsal time.

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But actually, you know, we're talking about

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why conductors are paid,

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and keeping the orchestra together is only the beginning.

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The conductor helps give a performance a real personality,

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which he or she does by controlling,

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or at least coordinating, many different aspects of performance.

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Let's start with tempo.

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Most pieces, in the standard repertoire at least,

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don't have precise indications about how many beats to the minute there are.

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The metronome wasn't invented until Beethoven's day,

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and even after that, many composers felt that using metronome markings

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encouraged a mechanical adherence to the beat,

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rather than freer, breathing performances.

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Wagner gave up using metronome markings in his later pieces,

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and many people feel that Beethoven's metronome markings

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might have been a little different had he not lost his hearing.

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And besides, is the composer always right, or even consistent?

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I know sometimes that composers, including myself,

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play pieces at different tempos at different times in our life.

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So anyway, the conductor decides the tempo,

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and it can vary tremendously from one conductor to the next.

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Listen to these two performances of the opening of the Funeral March

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from Beethoven's Eroica Symphony.

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Beethoven's Eroica Symphony

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Beethoven's Eroica Symphony

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Roger Norrington, and then Otto Klemperer,

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an excerpt from Beethoven's Eroica.

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You may have noticed, by the way, a pitch difference between the two as well.

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One of them is pitched lower than the other using authentic instruments.

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The A that they tuned to in the 18th century

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was about a half-step lower than it is now.

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Anyway, Klemperer's performance of this one movement alone

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is almost four and a half minutes longer than Norrington's,

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and the feel of the piece is quite different.

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It's even possible, and allowed, to like both.

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But there's a lot more than tempo to decide.

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There's balance, articulation, and dynamics, loud and soft, to deal with.

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Okay, now we're really going to get down here.

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We're going to hear the beginning of Mozart's Paris Symphony, number 31,

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as played by seven, count them seven, different conductors.

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And you will see, or anyway hear, that no two of them are alike.

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We'll start out with Günther Kerr with the Mainz Chamber Orchestra.

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.

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.

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.

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.

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.

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Okay, now there are five things I'd like to ask you to focus on as we listen to these

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different recordings.

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The first is tempo, how fast it is.

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The second is the spaces, if any, between the long notes at the beginning.

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The third is the articulation of the... is that last note short or long.

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The fourth is the repeat of the long notes at the beginning.

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Now in that second part, when the strings in most of the orchestra are going... there

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are some horns, some of the winds are going...

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Now some of these recordings, you can't hear that at all.

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Some of them you can hear it very slightly, one of them anyway, it's quite clear.

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And then five, the dynamics at the end of that second eighth note phrase.

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Let's listen to the care again.

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He does not separate the long notes at the beginning.

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The ends of the figures are long.

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You can't really hear the one in the repeat of the opening at all.

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And there is no dynamic fluctuation in the eighth note phrase there at the end.

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That was Günter Kehr.

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Strings weren't quite together there in a couple of places.

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Here's Jane Glover conducting the London Mozart Players.

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It's slower, big sound, lots of timpani, no real spaces between the long notes, long ends

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of the soft phrases.

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You can barely hear the one, bum, bum, bum, bum, and she does a crescendo and a diminuendo,

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getting louder and softer on the ending eighth note phrase.

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Okay, next comes Leinsdorf.

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The tempo is faster, there's less timpani, there are almost no spaces between those opening

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notes.

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All the notes at the end of the phrases are long.

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And there's almost no one bum, bum, bum, bum, although I think it's a little bit more than

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Jane Glover's.

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And then there's no particular dynamic change in the last eighth note phrase.

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Okay, now here comes Ormandy.

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I'm doing this fast, folks, so you can keep the previous one in your mind.

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Ormandy is the fastest of them all.

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And in the repeated notes at the beginning, he does put some separation between them.

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All the ending notes are long in the little soft phrase.

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Still almost no one bum, bum, bum, bum, you can't hear, but you have to hunt for it.

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And then at the end, no dynamic change on the eighth notes.

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Now, along comes Sir Thomas Beecham.

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We've got some separation between the opening notes, but he, on the second little group

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of figures there, makes the end of the second phrase and the fourth phrase shortish.

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I'm exaggerating a little bit, not much, one bum, bum, bum, bum, hardly at all on that.

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But he does make a bit of a crescendo and a diminuendo on that last eighth note thing.

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Now, John Elliott Gardner uses authentic instruments, which means that the pitch is going to be

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noticeably lower.

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There are spaces between those opening notes.

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The trumpets are very loud.

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They almost obscure the 16th note run.

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Not obscure, but it's much louder than in the other recordings.

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And on the, the first one is long and the second one short.

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We do hear the one bum, bum, bum, bum, a little bit more.

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And then in the eighth notes in the end, he makes quite a crescendo.

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And, finally, here's Nicholas Harnancourt, very different from the others.

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In the first place, it's the slowest of all the versions.

250
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And then in the repeated notes at the beginning, there's not only a separation between them,

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but each one has a decrescendo, a bum, bum, bum.

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It's very dramatic.

253
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The last notes are very long.

254
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It's very romantic.

255
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It's sort of milked for all the emotion possible.

256
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There's lots of timpani.

257
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And the repeat there, one bum, bum, bum, bum, is very clear, I think the clearest of all

258
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of them.

259
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,440
I don't care about that, I'm not making opinions here.

260
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And then, finally, there is no crescendo at the end.

261
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,640
It's a subito forte, a sudden loudness, when it gets into the section that we fade out

262
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on.

263
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:58,440
Lots of stuff for a conductor to think about.

264
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,520
Now, what's that?

265
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,040
You know, I can hear you thinking.

266
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,400
I know what you're thinking.

267
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,120
You want to know what my favorite is, right?

268
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:11,800
Well, I don't know.

269
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I will say, when it comes to tempo, that the Ormandy seems too fast to me.

270
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And the Harnancourt seems too slow.

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I think I probably like the Leinsdorf in terms of tempo.

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00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,520
There's a recording the Harnancourt made of one of the Vivaldi, the Tempest concerto,

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00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:37,440
that I just love the way he did this sort of over-the-top kind of dynamics and stuff.

274
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But you know, I don't think I'm going to get into this.

275
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You know, I know some of these people, I think I'm going to move on here.

276
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I will tell you one thing I don't like.

277
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It's sort of like a pet peeve, and I just want to get it off my chest.

278
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:55,520
You know, it's often, if not usually, a natural thing to slow down a bit, retard at the end

279
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,080
of a movement.

280
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,800
But I hate it when the conductor pauses and withholds the very last note beyond when you

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00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,200
expect it.

282
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,600
You know how annoying it is when somebody hands you something?

283
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,960
He says, here, take this, and then just as you're about to take it, he pulls his hand

284
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,560
back so you can't grab it.

285
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:12,560
Annoying, right?

286
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:41,280
Well, as far as I'm concerned, this is the musical equivalent of that mean-spirited behavior.

287
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:55,240
Bach's fourth Brandenburg Concerto, and no, I don't think I'll mention the conductor.

288
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I've met him.

289
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,000
He seems like a perfectly nice guy, and not mean-spirited at all.

290
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,600
But I still don't like that form of musicus interruptus.

291
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,480
Now, if you like process, which I do.

292
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:13,760
I love artists and writers and composers' sketchbooks, then you'd love to sit in on

293
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,160
a real working rehearsal with a good conductor.

294
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,920
Their styles vary enormously, but if they are good, they succeed one way or the other

295
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,480
in inspiring the musicians to a performance with spirit and personality.

296
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,720
Beecham was extremely laid back.

297
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,840
Here's about five and a half minutes of him rehearsing Haydn's Symphony No. 104 with the

298
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,680
Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

299
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:44,280
Now, this tape was not made with the idea of commercial release in mind.

300
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,820
This is what rehearsals are really like.

301
00:26:47,820 --> 00:26:49,160
The opening of the Allegro.

302
00:26:49,160 --> 00:27:05,000
Well, the first violins only matter.

303
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:26,880
If they'll make the dotted notes, not quite so dotted, we're never quite together on those

304
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,440
four notes.

305
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,160
That's it.

306
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,160
That's right.

307
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,160
That's right now.

308
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,160
Mr. Thomas, excuse me.

309
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,160
I think it would help in that second bar if we cut our D short so that that E-natural

310
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:39,160
came so that we didn't cover the E-natural.

311
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,160
Well, then, I have to do it in all.

312
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,160
I have to do it in the second bar, I have to do it in the violas and the cellos, basses.

313
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,160
Make it a minimus.

314
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,160
Set of a tire, set of what?

315
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,160
It's a dotted minimus.

316
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,160
It's a dotted minimus.

317
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,160
Make it a minimus.

318
00:27:46,160 --> 00:28:05,160
Have you got that?

319
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:22,280
We've got squeaks on the record in front of your seat.

320
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,280
Second bar.

321
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:31,280
We'll try a minimus instead of a dotted minimus and we'll change into the basses.

322
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:32,280
See how that works.

323
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,280
Thank you, Mr. Danger.

324
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,280
We'll try that.

325
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,280
Just try this out.

326
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,280
All right.

327
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:47,360
A few other points, letter A, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

328
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,440
The ninth bar, nine, ten, eleven, twelve.

329
00:28:51,440 --> 00:29:01,120
Just a little more swagger from horns and trumpets.

330
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,120
Just those four bars.

331
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,200
It helps.

332
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,600
It brightens the thing up a bit.

333
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,920
B we have the same thing.

334
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,240
I haven't marked anything though, have I?

335
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:21,080
I'd better mark it for you.

336
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:30,120
That fane of yours isn't really convincing, is it?

337
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:52,840
It's all right, Tina, it ought to be so that's all right, Tina, it ought to be so that's

338
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:53,840
all right.

339
00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:07,120
As you come again, come somewhere, we'd better take the old treatment, haven't we?

340
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,120
Yes.

341
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:16,160
We ought to be at that time.

342
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,000
Now if you please, letter B.

343
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:28,920
Well, that's what I've just marked, so that ought to be all right.

344
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:44,040
Nine bars before C. This C sharp marked fortissimo and the following D sharp as I heavily extend

345
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:57,520
you again, wrong, dead, that will help that passage too.

346
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,920
Before D, one, two, three, four, five, six.

347
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,440
I want to hear this passage.

348
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:13,160
Six bars before D. I may have to mark up the flukenobo a little.

349
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:19,520
Don't play it, don't play it.

350
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:34,560
Now six bars before D, if you please.

351
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:55,320
It ought to come down again, each time, yes, that's why I'm not hearing it so well.

352
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:17,680
Six once again before D. Sir Thomas Beecham, who was noted for saying

353
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,960
he hated rehearsals, but actually he obviously rehearsed, and you can see there what we heard

354
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,120
in the different openings to the Paris symphony too, that usually a composer, he just wrote

355
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,960
forte loud for the whole orchestra, and sometimes that doesn't make things come out the way

356
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,440
even he obviously intended it, so you have to make adjustments.

357
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,720
This can vary even in the hall, it can have to change because you're in a different auditorium

358
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,480
than you were playing last week.

359
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:50,780
Now there are conductors who are also good pianists or good violinists, but they don't

360
00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:56,720
tend to shine in the vocal department, or to put it another way, it's the gesture that

361
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,720
counts.

362
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,640
Here's Beecham rehearsing Mozart's opera, The Abduction from the Seraglio.

363
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:18,680
It's very romantic and sentimental and wistful, sounds like a post-mortem in the cup final.

364
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:33,480
Now, diminuendos.

365
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:57,160
Sir Thomas Beecham, blowing his chance to be on the next Three Tenors album.

366
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,960
As a contrast, I'd like to play a few minutes of a rehearsal with Herbert von Karajan.

367
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,360
It's in German, but you can get a good feel of how different the atmosphere is, not antagonistic,

368
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,520
but very concentrated.

369
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,540
And Herbie the K was one of the fastest talkers I've ever heard.

370
00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:20,640
The piece is the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, and I'll just give you a smattering

371
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,960
of what he's going to say here.

372
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,180
Stop, stop, one more thing, there must be a great difference between the notes with

373
00:34:27,180 --> 00:34:29,040
staccato dots and the others.

374
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,600
The staccato notes are too long and the others are far too short.

375
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,840
Later he says, suddenly the song breaks out and the rest is correctly marked.

376
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:37,880
Be careful of the upbeat.

377
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,520
The main thing is beauty.

378
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:45,200
The battle is half-lost if people hear rough entries, intoxicating sound.

379
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,280
It shouldn't be tremendously loud, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical

380
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:51,280
stuff.

381
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,920
Long, long, long, one bar before please, off at once when you have made your entry.

382
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,880
And he ends up saying, wonderful, very fine, that's it, impressive but beautiful, whatever

383
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:31,800
that means.

384
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:38,800
He ends up saying, wonderful, very fine, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it

385
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:59,800
must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot

386
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:14,600
of technical stuff, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it must

387
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:39,560
be full, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical

388
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:55,320
stuff, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it must be full, et

389
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:20,280
cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff,

390
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:37,240
but it must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot

391
00:37:37,240 --> 00:38:01,160
of technical stuff, but it must be full, et cetera, a lot of technical stuff, but it must

392
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:09,720
harmonic, charismatic, sometimes autocratic, extremely intelligent guy.

393
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:13,640
As a matter of fact, somebody I know who works with the Cleveland Orchestra told

394
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,760
me that when somebody who works in the administration there was told that

395
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,840
von Karajan had died, this person said, well I suppose that means he's only

396
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:27,800
going to be doing recordings from now on. Now the thing about rehearsing, I can't

397
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:36,360
stand it. I am not going to answer that. I'm going to go right on. This is Peter

398
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:48,680
Shickley. The show is Shickley Mix from PRI Public Radio International. Why are

399
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:54,480
conductors paid? They're paid and paid a lot because good ones are worth their

400
00:38:54,480 --> 00:39:00,000
weight in gold. Especially these days they have to be good musicians, good

401
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,120
diplomats, good administrators, good public relations people, and if at all

402
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:10,520
possible good sports. And like the CEO of a corporation they have to take the

403
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,480
blame when the results aren't good. Sometimes no matter how accomplished the

404
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,640
leader and the musicians are they simply don't have enough rehearsal time. Years

405
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,880
ago before the Iron Curtain came down I talked to a conductor who worked in an

406
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,360
Eastern European country. He said, circuitously, that the bad side of

407
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,080
working with a completely state-run orchestra was that it was extremely

408
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,720
difficult to get rid of dead wood. But the good side was that if he needed more

409
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:43,720
time to rehearse or record something he simply took it. No problem. Very few, if

410
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,860
any, non-pop outfits in this country can do that.

411
00:39:46,860 --> 00:39:52,880
Gil Evans was obviously a fine musician but he also obviously didn't always get

412
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,440
the amount of rehearsal time he needed. This cut from the Miles Davis Porgy and

413
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,880
Bess album is a terrific chart. I love it. But with some of the tricky rhythms the

414
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,320
musicians are hanging on for dear life. And there are some places where they're

415
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,140
obviously supposed to be together and they're not. Listen especially to the

416
00:40:13,140 --> 00:40:17,560
ends of the phrases in the first section.

417
00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:49,780
Listen to the end of this one.

418
00:42:13,140 --> 00:42:15,780
Listen to the end of this one.

419
00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:45,780
Listen to the end of this one.

420
00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:15,780
Listen to the end of this one.

421
00:43:43,140 --> 00:43:57,540
Great piece by Gil Evans based on Gershwin's Porgy and Bess. Great trumpet

422
00:43:57,540 --> 00:44:01,980
work from Miles Davis. And one of the things that's great about that cut is

423
00:44:01,980 --> 00:44:05,180
that as I say the musicians are hanging on for dear life and reading some of

424
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:10,900
those rhythms but the piece still cooks like mad. Now there is in my mind no

425
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:14,260
doubt that Gil Evans would have preferred the band to be together on

426
00:44:14,260 --> 00:44:18,860
those phrases. But that doesn't mean that everybody wants machine-like precision

427
00:44:18,860 --> 00:44:23,140
all the time. Here's Villa Lobos conducting an excerpt from his own

428
00:44:23,140 --> 00:44:28,500
Bacchianus Brazilianus number five. The solo cellist is quite free with the

429
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:33,860
rhythm. It's not always being played exactly as written. But my guess and it's

430
00:44:33,860 --> 00:44:38,740
only a guess is that the composer liked it like that. It makes it feel more like

431
00:44:38,740 --> 00:44:41,900
improvised music.

432
00:45:08,740 --> 00:45:10,800
you

433
00:45:38,740 --> 00:45:47,900
Villa Lobos conducting his Bacchianus Brazilianus number five or part of it

434
00:45:47,900 --> 00:45:55,540
with cellists from the orchestra de la radio diffusion francaise. You know

435
00:45:55,540 --> 00:46:02,020
excuse me you know there was a time when attacks and endrances in which all the

436
00:46:02,020 --> 00:46:05,900
instruments are exactly together were not only rare they weren't even

437
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:11,220
necessarily thought of as desirable. Just as Duke Ellington and Charlie Mingus

438
00:46:11,220 --> 00:46:17,180
often got their groups to revel in a sort of loose slightly chaotic highly

439
00:46:17,180 --> 00:46:26,940
sensuous sound. Well I guess I can't put it off any longer. It's it's confession

440
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:32,740
time here at the Sound Sanctuary. One of the nicest compliments I ever got was

441
00:46:32,740 --> 00:46:36,180
from a musician whose playing I had corrected during a rehearsal and

442
00:46:36,180 --> 00:46:42,900
afterwards she said boy you've got x-ray ears. Well maybe sometimes but certainly

443
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:49,300
not always. In fact I'm amazed at how much I'm capable of concentrating on one

444
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:54,980
part of a musical texture to the complete exclusion of another part. There

445
00:46:54,980 --> 00:46:59,820
is one PDQ Bach piece in which I didn't notice that the keyboard which was

446
00:46:59,820 --> 00:47:04,180
practically the only instrument playing at that point played a minor chord

447
00:47:04,180 --> 00:47:09,260
instead of a major chord. Huge difference. I didn't notice it until the record

448
00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:13,820
company sent me the edited tape to approve. As soon as I heard that tape it

449
00:47:13,820 --> 00:47:19,420
jumped out at me wrong wrong wrong. Why hadn't I noticed it at the session? To

450
00:47:19,420 --> 00:47:24,900
this day I can't understand that but we had to do some very fancy footwork to

451
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:29,700
correct it. At least in that case we did manage to splice in a correct version

452
00:47:29,700 --> 00:47:34,580
in the case of the cantata knock knock there are a couple of wrong notes that I

453
00:47:34,580 --> 00:47:38,020
never noticed until it was too late and we couldn't do anything to save that

454
00:47:38,020 --> 00:47:43,540
situation. So they're they're simply immortalized. That is until Deutsche

455
00:47:43,540 --> 00:47:49,420
Grammophon gets around to recording the complete works of PDQ Bach. But I was the

456
00:47:49,420 --> 00:47:55,380
conductor and I have to accept the blame. So you see being a conductor is not

457
00:47:55,380 --> 00:48:05,980
oh oh all right all right all right I give up. Hello oh hello sir yes well I I

458
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:13,260
usually do keep it locked while I'm on the air yeah. You what? But sir the show's

459
00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:20,540
almost over there's not really well no you're right about that.

460
00:48:20,540 --> 00:48:27,180
Yes as the station manager you do have more of a say in this than I do but I

461
00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:32,180
didn't even know you wanted to be a conductor. Well it's just that it's it's

462
00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:43,140
late you know. What? Right next door in the big studio? An orchestra now? Well

463
00:48:43,140 --> 00:48:51,260
yeah I can I can turn the mics on from in here. And well when you see the red

464
00:48:51,260 --> 00:48:56,700
light go on you can start the piece. Oh yes it will be broadcast live to the

465
00:48:56,700 --> 00:49:03,620
world in living stereo. I'll just hang up here and you wait for the light okay?

466
00:49:03,620 --> 00:49:13,660
Man you know sometimes I lose touch and think that this is my show. Well here it

467
00:49:13,660 --> 00:49:43,620
goes.

468
00:50:13,660 --> 00:50:24,360
Well, that was some of the least together playing I've ever heard.

469
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,400
But anyway, it was...

470
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,280
Hello?

471
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:30,440
You're welcome, sir.

472
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:31,440
It sounded...

473
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,300
Well, I've never heard anything like it.

474
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:37,680
What was that piece called?

475
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,520
All the Way Around and Back?

476
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,780
Well, what do you know?

477
00:50:43,780 --> 00:50:46,900
Yes, goodbye, sir.

478
00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:52,740
Well, it turns out that that piece was by Charles Ives, so maybe the conducting wasn't

479
00:50:52,740 --> 00:50:55,360
so bad after all.

480
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,640
As a matter of fact, when Ives wrote that piece, they probably would have had to use

481
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,940
four conductors to perform it.

482
00:51:01,940 --> 00:51:21,560
Imagine four conductors conducting one piece.

483
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:50,500
And

484
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:51,500
that was it.

485
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:52,740
That's Chick-fil-A Mix for this week.

486
00:51:52,740 --> 00:51:58,260
Our program is made possible with funds provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting,

487
00:51:58,260 --> 00:52:04,600
by the National Endowment for the Arts, and by this radio station and its members.

488
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:11,420
And not only that, our program, when it conducts itself appropriately, is distributed by PRI,

489
00:52:11,420 --> 00:52:14,240
Public Radio International.

490
00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:18,320
We'll tell you in a moment how you can get an official playlist of all the music on today's

491
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,340
program with album numbers and everything.

492
00:52:21,340 --> 00:52:23,160
Just refer to the program number.

493
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,500
This is program number 81.

494
00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:30,420
And this is Peter Shickely saying goodbye and reminding you that it don't mean a thing

495
00:52:30,420 --> 00:52:33,620
if it ain't got that certain je ne sais quoi.

496
00:52:33,620 --> 00:52:35,020
You're looking good.

497
00:52:35,020 --> 00:53:04,220
See you next week.

498
00:53:05,020 --> 00:53:26,780
Thank you.

499
00:58:35,020 --> 00:58:35,620
Thank you.