1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,200 Mr. Shickley. Hey man, I'm hip, I'm hep, I'm ready to step. Here's the theme. 2 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:28,320 Hello there, I'm Peter Shickley and this is Shickley Mix, a program dedicated to 3 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:33,040 the proposition that all musics are created equal, or as Duke Ellington put it, 4 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:38,480 if it sounds good, it is good. And goodness gracious, it's good to be able 5 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:42,960 to report with gratitude that our bills are paid by the Corporation for Public 6 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:48,320 Broadcasting, by the National Endowment for the Arts, and by this really with it 7 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,580 radio station, where I'm provided with this swinging studio whence emanate the 8 00:00:53,580 --> 00:00:58,320 cool sounds that are distributed to hep stations all over the place by PRI, 9 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:05,880 Public Radio International. It's an old cliche among musicians that when you're 10 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,920 tuning up for a rehearsal or a performance, when you're done tuning up 11 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:17,040 you say, good enough for jazz, or in some circles, close enough for jazz. That of 12 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,360 course reflects an assumed snobbery on the part of classical musicians towards 13 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:27,400 jazz, an attitude of disparagement, or it's often quite clever and even 14 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:33,360 charming, but certainly not to be taken seriously. On another edition of Shickley 15 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,800 Mix, dealing with the influence of jazz on classical music, we heard part of 16 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:43,720 Shostakovich's Jazz Suite No. 2, which has nothing to do with jazz as most of 17 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,840 us think of it. I mean, it has a Sousa-like march and a polka, and 18 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:54,240 obviously jazz in that title simply means light music, and we're talking L-I-T-E. 19 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,280 But many composers have had a healthy respect for jazz and have allowed it to 20 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,560 become a substantial influence on their style, rather than simply a spice that 21 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,380 they throw in occasionally to curry favor, as it were. Kurt Weill said that he 22 00:02:09,380 --> 00:02:14,240 made no distinction between serious and light music, just good and bad. And on 23 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,400 that other program I mentioned, we did hear some examples of music by classical 24 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,520 composers who were really changed, not just tickled, by jazz and its older 25 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,760 relative ragtime. But today we're going to take it a step farther. This show is 26 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:34,360 one I ought to save for Sweeps Week, folks. No, it's not your old hat stuff 27 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,360 like veterinarians who love their patients more than their own pets, or 28 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:43,200 belly dancers who sleep with their accountant's ex-brother's-in-law. Today's 29 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:48,480 show is about classically trained composers who write for jazz ensembles. A 30 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:54,720 lot of people don't realize what they go through. And as a special bonus, we have a 31 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,800 live jazz ensemble right here in the studio today. And when I say jazz 32 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,560 ensemble, I don't mean a piano trio from the local hotel, either. I mean a big band. 33 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,560 That's right, folks. There must be, what, about 20 guys in here. We actually had to 34 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,760 take the whole storage cabinet for 45s out into the hall to fit everybody into 35 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,520 the studio. Anyway, they're going to play our tidbit for us later in the show. So 36 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,760 just hang in there, fellas. It'll be a while yet. Before we hear from the live 37 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,040 band, we're going to hear recordings of two miniature masterpieces for jazz band. 38 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:32,080 They were both written by classically trained composers who left little or no 39 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,760 room for improvisation, but the results are extremely different from one another. 40 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:42,040 In the first piece, the jazz influence is as much textural as anything else. 41 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,600 Stravinsky was over 60 when he wrote the Ebony Concerto for Woody Herman's band in 42 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:53,000 1945. Uncle Igor, for all his supposed changes of style, always had a strong 43 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,520 musical personality. Whether he was using material by 18th century Italian 44 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,200 composers, Tchaikovsky, or Russian folk songs, it always came out sounding like 45 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,480 Stravinsky, and the Ebony Concerto is no exception. He may have heard black bands 46 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,560 in Harlem, Chicago, and New Orleans, and he may have listened to Woody Herman's 47 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:17,120 recordings, but the Ebony Concerto is not jazz. It's Stravinsky. Stravinsky once 48 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:23,600 again, as he had been before, perked up, invigorated, put on his toes by jazz. 49 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:29,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody 50 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:41,920 Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 51 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,920 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 52 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:39,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 53 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:09,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 54 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:49,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 55 00:06:49,360 --> 00:07:09,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 56 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:29,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 57 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:49,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 58 00:07:49,360 --> 00:08:09,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 59 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:29,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 60 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:49,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 61 00:08:49,360 --> 00:09:09,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 62 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:29,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 63 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:49,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 64 00:09:49,360 --> 00:10:09,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 65 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:29,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 66 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:49,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 67 00:10:49,360 --> 00:11:09,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 68 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:29,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 69 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:49,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 70 00:11:49,360 --> 00:12:09,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 71 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:29,360 Here's the first movement of the Ebony Concerto preceded by one of the Woody Herman numbers that Stravinsky is known to have listened to. 72 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:42,360 It has been quite correctly observed that the symphony in three movements harkens back in many ways to the Rite of Spring and the Symphonies of Wind instruments, written two and three decades earlier. 73 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:50,360 But there's also quite a bit of jazz influence, and not the earlier ragtime-y jazz, but big band jazz of the 40s. 74 00:12:50,360 --> 00:13:10,360 Listen to the end of the whole symphony. 75 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:20,360 In his later years, Stravinsky said that that last chord was a bit too commercial. And I guess I know what he means, but I don't know. I kind of like it. 76 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:28,360 I guess it's just because I'm so gall-durn American. And if you want commercial, you, yes you, have come to the right place. 77 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:40,360 I happen to have, right now, in stock, a lovely Db6add9 chord that has hardly ever been used, at least in the concert hall, and I am willing to part with this beauty for a mere... 78 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:47,360 What? What? The irrelevancy alarm? I'm talking about Stravinsky's symphony. 79 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:53,360 Let's see what the printout says. 80 00:13:53,360 --> 00:14:01,360 Just as the artistic depiction of boredom must not be too boring, so when dealing with tastelessness, there is a limit... 81 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,360 Oh, come on. That is such bourgeois. 82 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:13,360 Well, let's get back to the Ebony Concerto. And speaking of alarms, I better activate the very old recording alert here. 83 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:19,360 I might as well do it myself before I put the record on. 84 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:28,360 I mentioned that the Ebony Concerto was written for Woody Herman. Here's the second movement, as performed by the Woody Herman Orchestra. 85 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:35,360 As far as I know, this has not been reissued on CD in either a classical or jazz series. 86 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:51,360 Jazz. If this is jazz, the Volga boatmen are hipsters. 87 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:15,360 The Volga boatmen 88 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:25,360 The Volga boatmen 89 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:35,360 The Volga boatmen 90 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:45,360 The Volga boatmen 91 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:52,360 The Volga boatmen 92 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:59,360 Igor Stravinsky conducting the Woody Herman Orchestra in the middle movement of his Ebony Concerto. 93 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,360 I wonder if the harp player was wearing a zoot suit. 94 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:10,360 By the way, you know when I make remarks like, if this is jazz, Ivan the Terrible is going to win the downbeat poll, and things like that, 95 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:16,360 regular listeners to this program know that I don't tend to get too head up about nomenclature. 96 00:17:16,360 --> 00:17:20,360 I'm not about to get into any fistfights about what's jazz and what isn't. 97 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:25,360 What I'm doing is I'm just setting up the observation that of the two main pieces on today's program, 98 00:17:25,360 --> 00:17:30,360 the two pieces we're going to hear all of, when you hear the second piece, which we will do later on, 99 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:33,360 the first thing you think is jazz. 100 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:39,360 Whereas when you hear the Ebony Concerto, the first thing you think is Stravinsky. 101 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:41,360 I love that second movement. 102 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,360 So what makes the Stravinsky jazzy at all, if it is? 103 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,360 Is it the saxophones? 104 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:50,360 Here's a piece with saxophone that I don't think anybody would call jazz. 105 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:43,360 Part of Webern's Quartet Op. 22 for violin, clarinet, tenor saxophone, and piano. 106 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,360 Lively, but not exactly a finger snapper. 107 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:51,360 The sax is totally integrated into the texture, and it is a solo saxophone. 108 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:56,360 I think that's actually an important point, jazz influence-wise speaking. 109 00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:00,360 There's a small but significant classical repertoire for solo saxophone, 110 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,360 but when you hear a sax section, you're almost bound to think of a jazz band, 111 00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:07,360 because that's the only place you've ever really heard one. 112 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:11,360 The traditional marching band may have saxes, but they are rarely featured. 113 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:15,360 They're more like cornstarch. 114 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:20,360 What they do, if you really want to know, is double the bassoons all the time. 115 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:25,360 Okay, mustn't get bitter here. My high school band days are over. 116 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:30,360 Sax sections do tend to evoke the aroma of jazz. 117 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:34,360 Here's the beginning of a classical piece that employs what the composer himself calls 118 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:41,360 a lounge lizard saxophone section. 119 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:09,360 . 120 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:14,360 . 121 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:19,360 . 122 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:24,360 . 123 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:29,360 . 124 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:34,360 . 125 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:39,360 . 126 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:44,360 . 127 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:49,360 . 128 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:54,360 . 129 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:59,360 . 130 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:04,360 . 131 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:09,360 . 132 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:14,360 . 133 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:19,360 . 134 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:24,360 . 135 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:29,360 . 136 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:34,360 . 137 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:39,360 . 138 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:44,360 . 139 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:49,360 . 140 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:54,360 . 141 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:59,360 . 142 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:04,360 . 143 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:09,360 . 144 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:14,360 . 145 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:19,360 . 146 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:24,360 . 147 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:29,360 . 148 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:34,360 . 149 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:39,360 . 150 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:42,360 The first three minutes of Fearful Symmetries by John Adams, 151 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:46,360 who was conducting the Orchestra of St. Luke's. 152 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:51,360 Very nice piece. Unfortunately for this show, it's 28 minutes long, 153 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:56,360 which, by the way, is considerably longer than I should go without identifying myself. 154 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:00,360 My name is... Okay, fellas, please be patient. 155 00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:03,360 It's not time for you to play yet, but it won't be long. 156 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:09,360 I know it's a long time for 20 guys to sit in a studio this small without making any noise. 157 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:14,360 You folks are just doing terrific, but we just have to do a little bit more here. 158 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,360 My name is Peter Jazzbo Shickley, 159 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:23,360 and the program is Shickley Mix from PRI, Public Radio International. 160 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:26,360 Today's show is called Good Enough for Jazz. 161 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:31,360 Classical composers writing important pieces, whatever that means, for jazz bands. 162 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,360 Using jazz textures and phrasing. 163 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,360 If necessary, studying saxophone fingerings, 164 00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:41,360 as Stravinsky did while working on the Ebony Concerto. 165 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,360 Using lots of drums, nothing new to Igor. 166 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,360 Learning the habits of jazz players. 167 00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:52,360 Unlike classical musicians, jazzers are not used to the eighth note being the basic beat, 168 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:55,360 so Stravinsky had to recopy the whole first movement, 169 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:59,360 doubling the note values to make the quarter note the beat. 170 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,360 But above all, taking jazz seriously. 171 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:04,360 Putting your soul into it. 172 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:09,360 Even if, like Stravinsky, your soul comes from St. Petersburg. 173 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:35,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 174 00:24:35,360 --> 00:25:03,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 175 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:13,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 176 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:23,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 177 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:43,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 178 00:25:43,360 --> 00:26:10,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 179 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:39,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 180 00:26:39,360 --> 00:27:08,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 181 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:23,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 182 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:50,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 183 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:55,360 The third and last movement of Igor Stravinsky's Ebony Concerto, 184 00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:00,360 with Benny Goodman and the Columbia Jazz Combo under the direction of the composer. 185 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:03,360 I wonder if Igor led the band the way you're supposed to, 186 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:08,360 you know, with your back to the band looking out at the dancers, giving them a face to look at. 187 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:12,360 Remember back at the top of the show when I played Woody Herman's Goosey Gander 188 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:15,360 and said it was one of the records Stravinsky studied? 189 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,360 Well, I can't resist laying a pair of excerpts on you here. 190 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:24,360 The first from Goosey Gander and the second from the Ebony Concerto. 191 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:25,360 Here's Woody. 192 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:31,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 193 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:33,360 And here's Igor. 194 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:43,360 Stringed Instrumental Music 195 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,360 Coincidence or deja vu-do, you be the judge. 196 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,360 Okay, now, finally, we come to the other major. 197 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,360 Guys, I'm afraid you can't smoke in here. 198 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,360 I know it's a long time to wait, but there's a building rule. 199 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,360 I mean, you can't smoke anywhere in this building. 200 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,360 It won't be too long now. Let's see. 201 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,360 Just two more numbers and then you'll get to play, okay? 202 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,360 I appreciate your patience. 203 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:18,360 All right, the next piece, our other major work, was also written by a classically trained composer. 204 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:25,360 It is also for jazz band, but it too ignores the strong tradition of improvisation in jazz. 205 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:32,360 In other words, classical composers of the last couple of hundred years have tended to be control freaks. 206 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:38,360 But this composer was born 36 years later than Stravinsky, and he was American, very American. 207 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:45,360 So even though he may use a classical form like the fugue, which is an imitative form like a round, 208 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,360 his piece does not simply have a jazz flavor. 209 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:57,360 His piece is soaked, steeped, marinated in the gestures of big band jazz. 210 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,360 Three movements, eight minutes. See you then. 211 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:22,360 ... 212 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:39,360 ... 213 00:30:52,360 --> 00:31:21,360 ... 214 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:50,360 ... 215 00:31:50,360 --> 00:32:19,360 ... 216 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:27,360 ... 217 00:32:49,360 --> 00:33:18,360 ... 218 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:47,360 ... 219 00:33:47,360 --> 00:34:16,360 ... 220 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:45,360 ... 221 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,360 ... 222 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:44,360 ... 223 00:35:44,360 --> 00:36:13,360 ... 224 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:14,360 ... 225 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,360 ... 226 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,360 .. 227 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,360 .. 228 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:42,360 .. 229 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,360 .. 230 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:53,360 Leonard Bernstein leading the Columbia jazz combo in his Prelude, Fugue and Riffs 231 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,360 with Benny Goodman on solo clarinet. 232 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,360 The piece certainly swings more than the Stravinsky, 233 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,360 although I must say that if we're talking about influences, 234 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,360 I think that it owes almost as much to Stravinsky as it does to jazz. 235 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,360 Old Igor threw a long shadow. 236 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,640 You can see it on the pages of John Adams' piece as well. 237 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,720 I know that I, as a composer, have noticed a certain blockage of light on occasion 238 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:20,280 attributable to the same source. 239 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,760 My name, by the way, is Peter Shickley, and the show is Shickley Mix from PRI, 240 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,360 Public Radio International. Hey, it's good enough for jazz. 241 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,400 In fact, if it's good enough for jazz, it's good enough for classical. 242 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,120 Now, I think that the prelude, fugue, and riffs is one of Bernstein's best pieces, 243 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,880 but you don't hear it on symphony programs. Why? 244 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,960 Well, in the first place, some of the instruments it uses aren't a regular part of the symphony orchestra. 245 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,960 The saxes and the drum kit are trap set, 246 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,240 but also, you may need other players even for the instruments you do have. 247 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,640 A lot of perfectly good symphonic trumpeters, for instance, 248 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:02,120 don't sound idiomatic playing jazz licks. The phrasing is different, even the sound is different. 249 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,560 You need to have players who are used to that kind of play. 250 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,720 That's right, fellas, cats like yourselves. 251 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:14,640 I know, it's been, it's a long time to sit here in the studio without doing anything, I know that. 252 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,240 It'll be just one more number, okay? And then you guys are on. 253 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:22,560 I'm sure you'll blow us all away, and we're all looking forward to. 254 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,960 Anyway, back to the Bernstein. 255 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,240 It's also true that there are still a lot of symphony goers who either don't like jazz, 256 00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:33,840 or feel it shouldn't be mixed in with symphonic music. 257 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,560 It's okay as long as it sits at the back of the bus. 258 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:42,080 Eh, maybe I'm not being fair. Maybe jazz doesn't belong on a symphony program. 259 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:47,480 Not because of inferiority, but simply incompatibility. What do I know? I'm from the Midwest. 260 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,640 The funny thing is that as jazzy as that Bernstein piece is, 261 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,720 to a real jazz person, it isn't jazz, because of the lack of improvisation. 262 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:00,920 Now, I don't know that score. I don't know if there's maybe some improvisation in the drums and, 263 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,960 and bass or something like that. But basically, this is a written out piece. 264 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,520 I've listened to different recordings. To illustrate the difference, 265 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,200 let's take the most classical form that Lenny used, the fugue. 266 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,560 Here's another fugue. In fact, this piece is called 267 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:32,560 The Fugue. Now this is jazz. 268 00:43:45,560 --> 00:44:05,480 Okay, the University of North Texas two o'clock lab band, 269 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,800 not bad for a bunch of kids, playing Slide Hampton's The Fugue. 270 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:15,280 The landscape feels quite different from the Bernstein piece because of the improvised solos. 271 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,520 They really open it up and make it feel emotionally more direct. 272 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,880 It's like the difference between a symphony and an opera, 273 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,240 a melody being played by a violin section with 12, 14 players, 274 00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:34,160 as opposed to a melody being sung by a solo soprano who steps downstage and faces the audience. 275 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:40,120 I know a lot of modern opera directors don't approve of such primitive stagecraft, 276 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,840 but at the right time, there is nothing more powerful. 277 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,800 I'm not making value judgments here, by the way. 278 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,320 I don't think operas are inherently better than symphonies, 279 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,800 nor that improvised music is better than written-out music. 280 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,840 Each genre has its strengths and weaknesses. As a matter of fact, 281 00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,800 it seems to me that the fugal aspects of the Slide Hampton piece make it feel 282 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,720 a little bit like a novelty number. The Bach-ish style of the fugal sections 283 00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:10,960 is so completely separate from the other sections and the improvised solos in every way. 284 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:17,120 The only combination of fugue and improvisation that has felt convincing to me 285 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,320 has been in some of the work of the Modern Jazz Quartet. 286 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,760 Like I say, each kind of music has its delights. 287 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:30,160 And speaking of delights, it's tidbit time on the old bandstand. 288 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,000 That's right, guys. Get ready to roll. 289 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,800 It's time for our live 20-piece band to show us just how widespread 290 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,560 the influence of big band jazz is. They've come a long way. 291 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,480 And I want to tell you, gentlemen, that it's a real treat for us 292 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,920 to have some live music here on Shickily Mix. 293 00:45:47,920 --> 00:46:08,760 You all set? Okay, take it away. 294 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:21,320 BAND PLAYS 295 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,320 ♪ 296 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:31,320 ♪ 297 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:36,340 ♪ 298 00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:41,340 ♪ 299 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:46,340 ♪ 300 00:46:46,340 --> 00:46:51,340 ♪ 301 00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:56,340 ♪ 302 00:46:56,340 --> 00:47:01,360 ♪ 303 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,360 ♪ 304 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:11,360 ♪ 305 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:16,360 ♪ 306 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,360 ♪ 307 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,380 ♪ 308 00:47:26,380 --> 00:47:31,380 ♪ 309 00:47:31,380 --> 00:47:36,380 ♪ 310 00:47:36,380 --> 00:47:41,380 ♪ 311 00:47:41,380 --> 00:47:46,380 ♪ 312 00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:51,400 ♪ 313 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:56,400 ♪ 314 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,400 ♪ 315 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,400 ♪ 316 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,400 ♪ 317 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,420 ♪ 318 00:48:16,420 --> 00:48:18,420 All right! 319 00:48:18,420 --> 00:48:21,420 Fumio Matsumoto and Music Makers 320 00:48:21,420 --> 00:48:23,420 doing their swingin' version of 321 00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:26,420 Kagome Kagome, A Bird in a Basket 322 00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:28,420 and I might add, A Feather in the Cap 323 00:48:28,420 --> 00:48:30,420 of Sickly Mix. 324 00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:32,440 They came all the way here from Japan. 325 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,440 Thanks an awful lot, fellas. 326 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,440 And I really do appreciate your patience here while we... 327 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,440 ♪ 328 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,440 Hello? 329 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,440 Yeah? 330 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:46,440 What do you mean? 331 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,440 They're right here in the studio. 332 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:49,440 They are, too? 333 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,440 What makes you... 334 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,460 Oh, okay, listen. 335 00:48:54,460 --> 00:48:56,460 I'm going to speak very softly here 336 00:48:56,460 --> 00:48:58,460 so only you can hear me, okay? 337 00:48:58,460 --> 00:49:01,460 That needle drop and surface noise, 338 00:49:01,460 --> 00:49:03,460 I actually added those sounds 339 00:49:03,460 --> 00:49:05,460 to their performance 340 00:49:05,460 --> 00:49:07,460 because these guys don't have green cards yet. 341 00:49:07,460 --> 00:49:10,460 And, you know, if the Immigration Service 342 00:49:10,460 --> 00:49:12,460 hears this program, I can always say 343 00:49:12,460 --> 00:49:14,460 that it was really a recording. 344 00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:16,480 Right. 345 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,480 That's it exactly. 346 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,480 That's okay. 347 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,480 Okay, take care. 348 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,480 Okay, Fumio Matsumoto and Music Makers here. 349 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,480 I've got a little handout of the pieces they do and everything. 350 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:31,480 It says, 351 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,480 Enjoy Japanese melodies in our own rhythm 352 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,500 and feeling we have received many of such requests 353 00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:38,500 from the American people and others. 354 00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:41,500 We present this selection of Japanese tunes 355 00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:43,500 played in Latin and other foreign rhythms 356 00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:45,500 to satisfy those desire. 357 00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:49,500 And let's see, in addition to the regular big band instruments, 358 00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:51,500 it's got, it says, 359 00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:54,500 Japanese traditional instruments such as koto, harp, 360 00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:57,500 shamisen, three-strings guitar, 361 00:49:57,500 --> 00:49:59,500 and narumono, drums and flute, 362 00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:01,500 joined in the orchestra, 363 00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:03,520 would charm you with their characteristic sounds. 364 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,520 Well, they certainly would. 365 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,520 And as a matter of fact, 366 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,520 I think we've got time for another number here. 367 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,520 Let's see, here's the list of songs. 368 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,520 We've got the handball song, 369 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,520 rolling straw bags, 370 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,520 a bird in the basket, that's the one we heard, 371 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,520 pass through the gate, please, 372 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,540 little loach, little carp, that sounds like a good one. 373 00:50:25,540 --> 00:50:28,540 Fumio, why don't we do that one? 374 00:50:28,540 --> 00:50:31,540 Oh, man. 375 00:50:31,540 --> 00:50:33,540 Hello? 376 00:50:33,540 --> 00:50:34,540 What? 377 00:50:34,540 --> 00:50:36,540 There's somebody down there right now? 378 00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:37,540 He's coming up? 379 00:50:37,540 --> 00:50:39,540 He's from the what service? 380 00:50:39,540 --> 00:50:40,540 Okay. 381 00:50:40,540 --> 00:50:43,540 Fumio, you know, I think maybe you guys should leave after hall. 382 00:50:43,540 --> 00:50:45,560 We're a little bit short of time here. 383 00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,560 As a matter of fact, there is a fire escape 384 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,560 right down at the end of the hall. 385 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,560 Let me get the theme on here, it's a little early, 386 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,560 let me get the theme on here, and I'll show you where it is. 387 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,560 ¦ 388 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,560 And that's Sickly Mix for this week. 389 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,560 Our program is made possible with funds provided 390 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,560 by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, 391 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,560 by the National Endowment for the Arts, 392 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,560 and by this radio station and its members. 393 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,560 Thank you, members. 394 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,560 And our program is distributed by PRI, 395 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,560 Public Radio International. 396 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,560 We'll tell you in a moment how you can get an official playlist 397 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,560 of all the music on today's program 398 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,560 with album numbers and everything. 399 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,560 Just refer to the program number, and folks, 400 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,560 this is program number 100. 401 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,560 And this is Peter Sickly saying goodbye 402 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,560 and reminding you that it don't mean a thing 403 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,560 if it ain't got that certain je ne sais quoi. 404 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:23,560 You're looking good. See you next week. 405 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:38,560 ¦ 406 00:52:53,560 --> 00:53:03,560 ¦ 407 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:33,560 ¦ 408 00:53:53,560 --> 00:54:03,560 ¦ 409 00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:13,560 ¦ 410 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:23,560 ¦ 411 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:53,560 ¦ 412 00:54:53,560 --> 00:55:03,560 ¦ 413 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:13,560 ¦ 414 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:23,560 ¦ 415 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:33,560 ¦ 416 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:43,560 ¦ 417 00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:53,560 ¦ 418 00:55:53,560 --> 00:56:03,560 ¦ 419 00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:13,560 ¦ 420 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:23,560 ¦ 421 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:33,560 ¦ 422 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:43,560 ¦ 423 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:53,560 ¦ 424 00:56:53,560 --> 00:57:03,560 ¦ 425 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:13,560 ¦ 426 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,560 If you'd like a copy of that playlist I mentioned, 427 00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,560 send a stamped, self-addressed envelope to Sickly Mix. 428 00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:28,560 That's S-C-H-I-C-K-E-L-E, Sickly Mix. 429 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:30,560 Care of Public Radio International, 430 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:37,560 100 North 6th Street, Suite 900A, Minneapolis, MN 55403.